Wednesday, September 16, 2009

The new pay notification for the IIXs ...


... is here.

For the IIX faculty, MHRD has made one major concession: Assistant professors will move to Pay Band 4 automatically after 3 years; when they do so, their AGP will also go up to Rs. 9,000. This benefit was given to readers in UGC institutions, but not to the IIX assistant professors -- a clear anomaly. I'm glad MHRD acted to eliminate this problem.

[Here's another 'concession': in the earlier notification, fresh PhD hired by the IIXs were to be called Lecturers-cum-Post-Doctoral Fellows. Now, they will be called Assistant Professors (on contract). Same difference? You bet!]

Other than these, MHRD hasn't yielded an inch on anything else: Associate Professors will not get an AGP of Rs. 10,000. Professors are not getting an AGP of Rs. 11,000. The 40 percent cap on the number of professors who go on to a higher AGP of 12,000 after six years of service has not budged. The bunching up of increments (at all levels) has not been addressed.

And, there is no scholastic pay.

I'm very happy with what the Assistant professors have got -- MHRD has done the right thing here.

And I am not unhappy with the MHRD's firm stand on any of the other things.

32 Comments:

  1. Anonymous said...

    awesome!! now u will travel in economic class until u become full prof in iisc..thats good impetus for asso prof to work hard!!

  2. Pratik Ray said...

    Not sure if the 40% cap is a good idea.

    Scenario A -
    60% of the faculty do well, but only 40% get the hike

    Scenario B -
    10% work hard, but due to possibility of 40% getting a hike, actually 40% get a salary hike.

    Would have been much better if they had done away with the idea of a salary hike completely, and instead allowed for a salary component from research projects at all levels. At least that makes it performance based, across all departments (and not just those streams that attract consultancy projects).

    Also, does anyone have any idea if the "Assistant Professor on contractual basis" expected to do research + teaching, or is it going to be a teaching only appointment?

  3. Anonymous said...

    When a PhD with 3 years experience is hired (This used to be the minimum qualification at IIXs previouly), will that person be hired at PB-3 or PB-4?

  4. Anonymous said...

    I wonder if there is any great incentive now to pursue Ph.D. I can go on to
    be an Assoc. Prof. in PB-4 in UGC/NITs and if I experience a stagnation or only a minor increase in pay after that, I will jump over to the private sector. As a fresh Assistant Professor I will be paid more than twice the Ph.D. stipend.

  5. Niket said...

    @Anon-1 11:46 pm:
    I have been informed that AsP will now have to travel in 2-AC. They are not eligible for economy class airfare.

    @Anon-3 12:19 am:
    It will be interpreted differently by different IIXs. IIT-K will consider post-PhD experience, IIT-M will take a literal reading.

    I agree with IIT-K, though. I think we ought to go by the intent of the rule when there are folks who cannot be easily "categorized."

    @Anon-4 9:53 am:
    Let me challenge my colleagues: If Kapil Sibal keeps our pay scales the same AND increases UGC payscales by a good 25%, how many will actually move? There is more to being at an IIT than a comparative pay with NIT.

  6. Niket said...

    @Abi: "I am not unhappy with the MHRD's firm stand on any of the other things"

    I think the AsP got a bad deal if the benefits and travel is linked to grade pay. One of the issues raised was that AsP won't be able to travel economy class with the 6PC recommendations. [I haven't verified this personally... heard it from a friend whom I trust.]

  7. Anonymous said...

    Niket,
    Reg travel: from the official notification regarding Traveling Allowance and entitlements (link on Giridhar's blog), those drawing grade pay 5400 and 6600 are eligible for Economy class/AC II tier. Grade pay of 7600, 8700, 8900 are entitles economy class/1st AC.

    Of course what happens if the grade pay is not one of the above mentioned figures, I don't know.

    Sridhar

  8. Anonymous said...

    Also, Sriram has given a time line for progress in NITs in the comments of Giridhar's blog:

    "in NITs.... it will be PhD + 9 years to reach PB4. In IIT, PhD + 3 years is 8000 grade pay moving to PB4 and 9000 after another 3 years or PhD + 6 years."


    Sridhar

  9. Anonymous said...

    Niket, it is unfortunate that as a IIT faculty, you seem to trust friends who do not know what they are talkingabout.

    Everyone who has a grade pay of Rs. 5400 can travel economy class in air. Eralier, even assistant professors were travelling by air and you think the new pay commission will say no one except professor will travel by air.

    That;'s why people like giridhar put the official notification up. It is very unfortunate that faculty in various IITs are misleading everyone.

    http://giridharmadras.blogspot.com/2009/09/grade-pay-and-entitlements.html

  10. Anonymous said...

    You say,

    "Other than these, MHRD hasn't yielded an inch on anything else: Associate Professors will not get an AGP of Rs. 10,000."

    According to the government, associate professors in IITs were not equivalent to professors in UGC.

    Associate professors in IITs were in the scale of S-27 (see 6 CPC), 16400-20900. This has been mapped to AGP of 8900, but has been increased to 9500. Professors in UGC were in the scale of S-28, which ends at 22400, which has been mapped to AGP of 10000
    Professors in IITs were in the scale of S-29, which starts at 18400 and also ends at 22400, which has been mapped to 10000 but has been given 10500.

    According to the government, the gradation was thus as

    S-27 - AcP of IIT
    S-28 - Professor in UGC
    S-29 - Professor in IIT

    and thus they have tried to maintain the equivalent: 9.5, 10, 10.5 K.



    "Professors are not getting an AGP of Rs. 11,000."

    Why should they?

    " The 40 percent cap on the number of professors who go on to a higher AGP of 12,000 after six years of service has not budged."

    why should it be? In UGC, it is 10%. Remember, previously you had a cap of 10% for the supertime scale of 22,400. This has been made 40%. So, this is better than previous scale.

    "And, there is no scholastic pay. "

    Scholastic pay is stupid. The choice of Ph.D can not be based on years lost. There are people in IISc who have finished ph.d in less than 2 years. Will their scholastic pay be different from a person who has spent 7 years for Ph.D?

    Ph.D is a career choice and you can not ask government to compensate for that.

  11. Niket said...

    I stand corrected.

    @Anon-12.19:
    For your info, one of the anon commenters who corrected my statement is an IIT-M faculty whose office is next door to mine. After he wrote his reply, he specifically made it a point to inform me that I mis-spoke. I am only writing now because I was a tad busy during the day and only logged in now.

    I hope we trust each other a little more that a simple matter of "misspeaking" does not draw an accusation of "misleading".

  12. Niket said...

    Oh, and before someone else misreads my statement "there is more to being at IIT than a comparative pay with NIT", let me make it clear:
    I meant that the academic freedom one gets in IIT/IISc and a handful of other labs and the possibility of interacting with other good faculty is currently unparalleled.
    I did not mean that just because we are at IIT/IISc that we should be put at a pedestal.

  13. Anonymous said...

    Why the big deal with travelling economy class ?

    Also would anyone comment on why there is no centralized rule/ guidelines regarding start ups for assistant professors ? I assume they come out of govt money mostly ? Would that not help to create some equity in facilities between the IIX's and central univs ?

  14. Thinking of Returning said...

    "I'm very happy with what the Assistant professors have got -- MHRD has done the right thing here.

    And I am not unhappy with the MHRD's firm stand on any of the other things."

    I am amazed by these comments, elsewhere I read that a fresh PhD will be placed at 21k+7k, starting salary as an Assistant Professor on contract. Do you seriously believe that this ridiculous salary will help at all with the faculty crunch at IITs, or are you just happy that the ministry showed a lot of character by not backing down from its earlier decision?

    In any case I was very serious about returning to India, and was in touch with a few of the professors (and the HOD) at my Alma Mater in this regard. I have been following this salary drama for a while now.

    However after this resolution I would say that this option is no longer even on the table.

  15. Anonymous said...

    ToR,

    Is it that after 6PC you would be getting less that what you would have got if 5PC salary was continued (when you made your decision to return India)? What has changed in between? I believe your 6PC salary won't be less than what you would have got under 5PC. I am not a PC expert. I need not be. This is plain and simple logic. There was an aberration where MHRD assumed that Asst. Prof. gets promoted to Asso. Prof. in 3 years. This is now corrected in revised order.

    The salary had always been 'ridiculous' depending on who is talking to whom. People who served the system in spite of that will continue to do so. We shall still get applications from India and abroad. There will be people who take this job to be a part of the nation building process with love, sincerity and dedication as it deserves. None can put a price tag to these essential virtues of a quality teacher for rising nation like India.

    Not everybody can become a teacher. It is a huge responsibility and requires a different state of mind. Salary is an insignificant component in the decision making process. Besides salary there are many avenues to earn (legally). I know people, even Asst. Prof. position, earning more than 6 lakhs a year outside his IIT salary. Govt. salary is a protected base salary. Put more effort, earn more.

    Finally, not every application we receive from abroad are worth short listing. It should match requirement of either side. One should think it is worth returning. The other should think it is worth recruiting. Should match criteria of both.

    If you have in it, try. I assure you that you will not starve. No faculty member of these institutes are starving.

    Purab

  16. Anonymous said...

    @ Purab,

    You are 100% correct. It does require a different mind-set to be a faculty in India. It has now been reduced to full-time volunteer work ;)

    Satire apart, it is the 3 years experience requirement more than anything else that will prove to be the BIG stumbling block in attracting good faculty, especially in the engineering departments. No doubt the engineering departments will also keep getting applications. But it is quite likely that the best who would have otherwise applied would in all likelihood be lost elsewhere.

  17. Thinking of Returning said...

    To Purab,


    #Is it that after 6PC you would be getting less that what you would have got if 5PC salary was continued (when you made your decision to return India)? What has changed in between?

    I would not have returned with the 5PC salaries at all, I was led to believe that 6pc salaries would be substantially higher, like 70-80k, for an assistant professor. Starvation is hardly the criterion for a sustainable salary in today's world. Especially in places like Bangalore and Delhi and Bombay



    "Not everybody can become a teacher. It is a huge responsibility and requires a different state of mind. Salary is an insignificant component in the decision making process."

    Believe me it is not. Countless researchers in the US have told me otherwise.

  18. Anonymous said...

    @Anon, I appreciate your satire :-)
    If you allow me to be little serious, my response would be ... we are qualified and strong enough to volunteer, to take a career of our own choice, not being dictated or forced by whether it is 50-60K or 70-80K. I have clearly told that it is the base salary which is protected. In IITs there are enough opportunities to earn more and people do earn.
    BTW, we all know how many families in India make a living at sub 50-60K. Don't we? Which India do we belong to? No nation has become great without sacrifice and service and teachers have the second most important role after parents. Nation, youth idolize them. We all know these. I don't need to preach. Simply trying to put in the context.

    To ToR, Pls. talk to any existing 5PC, 6PC salaried faculty members of IITs, IISc. They are able to sustain themselves quite well and have the pride of nourishing the best of the country. It is a pride, an honour to be IIT faculty. You must have got few more responses in the other blog.
    On what you heard at US ... there are all possible things in air, we listen what we want to listen to. Since you follow these two blogs, I need not repeat what has already been said by many. Pick up the one that suits you.

    Purab

  19. Anonymous said...

    TOR,

    If they gave every assistant professor PB4, your salary would have been in the 70-80k range
    including HRA. So, you were nor misled. In fact, the faculty associations had represented to Prof. Mehta that Assistant Professors be put in PB4.

    The ministry cleverly dropped PB-4 for everyone and then re-notified to include PB-4 for Asst. Profs, 3 years after service. In fact, fresh PhD's, who would have made close to 60k (with HRA), have now
    been redesignated into Contract
    positions, which means that they will make far less than 60k per month.

    I agree with your position. You can help your country just as well by being in the private sector. In today's India, money talks and many of us were waiting patiently for months to see what 6PC had in store for us. After 4 years in the system, I have decided to call it quits, I have a very good offer in Bangalore from the research arm of a US based multinational.

    Thank you Mr. Sibal, you just gave me a 4X pay raise. And the best thing is that my raise will not come from tax payers money. This is an amazing feat you pulled off. Wish you continued success in endeavors like this.

    Bang_citz

  20. Thinking of Returning said...

    Dear Bang_citz,
    Glad to hear from somebody who is sensible and willing to admit that money is an important issue for us mortals.

    The idealism of some of the IIT professors has left me befuddled. As an undergrad, I had a tough time getting recommendations for studying abroad. Most professors did not write recommendations as they did not agree with the brain drain. The professors with whom I was well acquainted and had worked with on research projects, flat out refused to write recommendations because "a talented person like you should stay and study in the country". Later I learnt that many of them had no qualms about sending their own kids for studying abroad.

    This imposition of your ideals on others is indeed pathological. I wonder if one becomes a faculty and tries to get consultancy money, these high minded senior faculty might not try to sabotage these endeavors. After all a professor should not waste time on base pursuits such as money.

    Out of curiosity, which IIT were you situated at?

  21. Anonymous said...

    I am totally agree with TOR and Anno (10:30pm). I think very few fundoo profs were there in IIT or IISc anyways...most of them are loosers and carry the false pride with them..waiting for their salary to go up..unfortunately some bright stdnts came into this profession recently and thanks to this 6PC they will go way...i feel pity on those current and future IIians...GOD!!! same old prof and their own products (phd from iit then some experience abroad) will fill up the faculty positions. probably some guys who didnt get any job in usa after their graduation will come to teach...no hope for real smart prof. eh!! reminds me my iit days...God bless india!!

  22. Anonymous said...

    I talked to three of my friends, all at IITs/IISc. All assistant professors, I won't tell which is which to maintain confidentiality.
    All are in engineering depts.

    One joined after barely a year of PhD and has put in one year (A), one has more than three years of PhD and just joined (B) and the third has 4+ years after PhD (C).

    A has said that he is definitely going to leave if he is re-designated as Asst. Professor under contract. Even if he is not redesignated, he is strongly thinking about taking up an industry job. B thinks that the pay is very disappointing and has started interviewing with some companies in Bangalore/Hyderabad. He is definite that he is going to leave in a few months. C is going to stay for a year and see if he makes it to Associate Professor, because he feels that he has invested a lot of time and effort in this career.

    In my limited poll, 66% of Asst. Professors I talked to are going to leave. I wouldn't be surprised if this points to a bigger and more menacing trend.

  23. Anonymous said...

    I think every time a young faculty member quits an IIT/IISc from now on, they should say that they are taking "Kapil Sibal's Bonanza", since their salaries will go up by 4 to 5 times in the private sector.

    Let us popularize this phrase, because full credit must be given to the most "dynamic" HR minister India has ever had.

  24. Anonymous said...

    This ridiculous. I got an offer from IIT-B and now I am backing off..I know 2 more guys here in USA who are going to do the same thing...ITs surprized me that Prof like Abi is happy with the PC revision...wonderful!!
    Abi, can you just tell me one thing, whats the new thing MHRD give u this time...after 3yrs Asst prof move into PB-4. Haha after 4yrs one will be Asso. prof..so what the heck..2ndly one need money at the beginning when we are going to settle down there from abroad..why you guys are happy with this MHRD notification. Cant you guys make MHRD to one simple thing i.e. to start Asst prof from PB4.
    This is awe-inspiring..

  25. Anonymous said...

    anon@I am totally agree with TOR and Anno (10:30pm). I think very few fundoo profs were there in IIT or IISc anyways...most of them are loosers and carry the false pride with them..waiting for their salary to go up. : If that is so, one should be happy with the rise 6PC offers.

    ...no hope for real smart prof. eh!! reminds me my iit days...God bless india!! : India is already blessed with son like you who having been educated at the best place it can offer has the least respect for it.

    One may see that almost every faculty has the offer/capacity to switch to 4x-5x jobs. Those who do not switch may find that there is something unattractive in that 4x-5x jobs compared to IIT. Either IIT package as a whole is good or they 'volunteer' out of passion, love .. Simple logic. Isn't it? Those who want to go now, could always go as there was always 4x-5x job in the horizon. 6PC did not change anything.

    BTW, it may be out of context as the debate is on 6PC but people are talking about personal experiences as IIT students etc ... my personal experience says that it is the recession and lack of opportunities in US that in general (there are exceptions) are making people look homeward.

    Purab

  26. Anonymous said...

    "Those who want to go now, could always go as there was always 4x-5x job in the horizon. 6PC did not change anything."

    Unfortunately Purab, this is the problem. The 6PC did not change anything as you said. They could have made the 4X transition look a little less attractive by making it 2X. But they did not. This shows that the Indian establishment is still sticking to the chalta hai attitude.

    If you read the Goverdhan Mehta report you will see that young faculty had actually asked for non-permanent jobs with higher compensation and incentives. It was denied because the old guard still believes that if you get less than what you can work hard and deserve, then you have job security and the divine right to constantly complain. Plus, you don't have to deliver things on a world-class level.

    You are right that a lot of people are returning home because the future of the West looks bleak. But, they don't have to put up with this institutionalized crap that is being doled out in installments by the ministry. They can work in the private sector for a much higher compensation.

    My prediction is that in another 5 years, they will make govt. academic jobs look very unattractive to young people and make the benefits worse than today. At the same time, there will be private and foreign universities, where pay and performance will be linked. I think that will be the best thing that can happen to Indian academia because the "chalta hai" attitude will diminish considerably.

  27. Anonymous said...

    When I was doing BE at an NIT, a lot of my batchmates were much smarter than me. But none of them went into research or teaching. The main reason was the low salary. People who say that money is not everything are making a huge mistake. You may come to that conclusion after spending a couple of years as a prof. But you should not expect a young person to have such ideals. The result is that the country loses on the huge capital of potentially talented people who could have become scientists and teachers.

  28. Anonymous said...

    I assume people who are writing in this forum to be indians. I am surprised how they were so foolish as to think that a PC would suddenly quadruple salaries or suddenly make them pvt sector like.

    Yes I think engineering faculties should get more to properly reflect market economics.

    I doubt private universities would be the answer because they would be motivated by profit. Unless we suddenly have a Mr Stanford ........

  29. Anonymous said...

    "I doubt private universities would be the answer because they would be motivated by profit."

    This has been a very popular catch-phrase. What exactly is non-profit Indian research motivated by? Perhaps there is a serious lack of motivation which prevents people from going out all the way. India's top research institute (IISc) was actually privately funded by a visionary (J.N. Tata) as astute as the Mr. Stanford you refer to. It was much later that the Govt. "acquired" this prestigious institution and has since been doing everything it can to reduce it to rubble.

    Someone had once remarked, "India's software industry became #1 in the world not because of the government, but in spite of it". Perhaps we should apply the same philosophy to education and see what happens.

  30. Anonymous said...

    Enough time wasted, go back to your labs and research, dudes! Doesn't matter where, just get to work!

  31. Anonymous said...

    Well said! :-)
    P

  32. Anonymous said...

    I took up a faculty position in India earlier this decade. I thoroughly enjoyed my years in academics, was loved by my students, things worked out well and I was promoted in a few years. Subsequently I quit and joined the industry. The decision was difficult but at the end of the day the choice was whether or not I wanted my family to suffer. Its been a few years since I joined the industry and I am glad I made the switch. The financial security that the 3x or 4x brought along was simply amazing. Our lifestyle did not change but we paid of debts and could take care of family members better. Also got to do some very satisfying work in the industry. I guess India has changed and there are many opportunities for faculty to jump ship if they want to. At the end of the day its a personal choice one has to make. Life is different for everyone.