tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post5552587541573431686..comments2024-03-20T13:10:11.477+05:30Comments on nanopolitan: IITs and women: A recapAbihttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06790560045313883673noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-64386699354349284992007-07-13T20:35:00.000+05:302007-07-13T20:35:00.000+05:30ok, i am a woman and did my BTech from an IIT.some...ok, i am a woman and did my BTech from an IIT.<BR/><BR/>some of my observations based on women in my batch and seniors/juniors:<BR/><BR/>most of us came from families with no sons. in other words most of us had sisters only. <BR/>wonder if there is a correlation..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-15596978305016939492007-06-01T21:40:00.000+05:302007-06-01T21:40:00.000+05:30author writes--Thus, in a random selection of stud...author writes<BR/>--<BR/>Thus, in a random selection of students in 2005 or 2006, women are three to four times less likely to be found in IITs than in other engineering colleges. This, by itself, does not constitute an evidence for (a plausible) bias in JEE against women. For that, we have to show that the fraction of women in the eligible pool of candidates is far higher than that in the IITs.<BR/>---<BR/><BR/>Your line of thinking is flawed/vague. So long as JEE is based on advanced reasoning about math/physics, it WILL be biased against women (on average). If you want to remove the bias, convert it to an exam pertaining to verbal ability, knowledge of history or biology. Every exam has a BIAS and it needs to have a BIAS to do the job (until such time the domain itself changes). <BR/><BR/>Less selective exams like AIEE and CBSE will have greater proportions of women (even when subject matter is controlled for) simply because the comparison is between subsamples that are not on the extreme ends of the gaussian (or non-gaussian) distributions (as in the case of JEE, see my previous post). The more extreme the selection criteria, the greater the discrepancy between groups (based on gender, caste, region, what have you). <BR/><BR/>http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/ has excellent examples of valid statistical reasoning that you didnt seem to have picked up in your education as a metallurgist.Sriramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06570517903462144931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-88104192808674619722007-06-01T21:23:00.000+05:302007-06-01T21:23:00.000+05:30The discussion seems to ignore well documented dif...The discussion seems to ignore well documented differences between men and women on math/spatial reasoning, the kind of skill that has some bearing on dealing with exams like JEE or math olympiad. Its hardly limited to India. It is a world wide phenomenon. Such a disparity is noticeably absent in medicine and law, both equally or even more prestigious professions. <BR/><BR/>Even small differences in means will translate into large discrepancies at the tails of two overlapping gaussians.<BR/><BR/>This does not rule out the operation of social factors but even when all social aspects are controlled for (or equalized), I dont believe we can expect more than 15% presence of women in JEE ranks. A difference does not equal discrimination.<BR/><BR/>The same sort of reasoning probably applies to groups that are over-represented in IITs (Iyers, Agarwals etc) compared to their numbers in the population. Relative ratios at the tails of distribution can be very different even with (relatively) modest mean differences (say half a standard deviation)Sriramhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06570517903462144931noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-44071500864729280642007-05-01T09:38:00.000+05:302007-05-01T09:38:00.000+05:30Abi: The ranking part was only for illustration th...Abi: <BR/><BR/>The ranking part was only for illustration that it is not an easy job to select 5000 out of hundreds of thousands.<BR/><BR/>As the TOI article illustrates even the real tough IIT questions don't allow that and the IIT examiners seem to be using arbitrarily decided weights to decide on the selected 5000 and rank them. (Thats what they do.)<BR/><BR/><BR/>Abi: I agree with your goals.<BR/>I just wonder if what you want is doable with only changing the JEE exam. I am sure you know there have been debates inside IITs and they have been trying to tinker with the exams. I came across some old debates at http://www.iitk.ac.in/infocell/Archive/dirjuly3/directions.html<BR/>http://www.cse.iitk.ac.in/users/dheeraj/ideas/newjee.html<BR/><BR/>My gut feeling is similar to Vivek's; figure out how to (not in a year or 2) increase the number of seats from 5,000 to 50,000 or even more. That will partly solve a lot of the issues that you point to. But as others have said its easier said than done and will take years. <BR/><BR/>So lets have that as a 5-10 yr goal and in between continue with the tinkering. <BR/><BR/>cheers<BR/>Chittachittahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06399786901342253324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-88296403119536165592007-05-01T09:02:00.000+05:302007-05-01T09:02:00.000+05:30Chitta: You seem obsessed with ranking, which need...Chitta: You seem obsessed with ranking, which need not be the main concern. When I say a standardizing exam, I don't quite mean something at the level of SAT where a LARGE number of students get a perfect score. One can think of something that's intermediate between something at the level of SAT and at the level of JEE, all the while ensuring that the new JEE strictly sticks to the syllabus of CBSE (or equivalent).<BR/><BR/>TR: Oops! I certainly intend to throw up. Your comments are quite delicious, actually.That mangled phrase was either "throw my hands up" or "give up". I forget now ...<BR/><BR/>You are certainly right about the difference in 'opinion'. I know you don't want to give even an inch here, but tell me, TR, which part of the 'data' that I presented are you unhappy with? Sure, a more detailed set of data (Class XII composition, the aspirations of students at this level, etc.) will allow us to refine our arguments and conclusions, but given what I have presented here, wouldn't you at least 'suspect' that there is a plausible 'gender bias' in the IITs' exam? Just curious, because you seem willing to give these institutions a clean chit.<BR/><BR/>I also agree with you on Vivek's intervention. Ever since he started this lively discussion, I have been learning a lot of new stuff.Abihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06790560045313883673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-19327809265172002422007-05-01T05:46:00.000+05:302007-05-01T05:46:00.000+05:30abi:no no, please don't throw up! :-Dsomeone said ...abi:<BR/>no no, please don't throw up! :-D<BR/>someone said a couple of days ago that you were diluting your case by introducing arguments that were at times weak and at other times irrelevant. as i've said before, i think we have a basic disagreement of *opinion* as to whether coaching classes are a necessary "evil" or not, and whether an entrance exam is to be held as culprit for some of society's most deep-rooted biases. ultimately, unless there are data, aka *facts* available, people will simply keep talking at each other. imagine what this discussion would have been like without vivek's contribution.Tabula Rasahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16358094860426062297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-11396798949941545722007-05-01T01:36:00.000+05:302007-05-01T01:36:00.000+05:30Sudeep:I was quoting Abi and was in a sense questi...Sudeep:<BR/><BR/>I was quoting Abi and was in a sense questioning his proposed solutions.<BR/><BR/>Chittachittahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06399786901342253324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-30059410845205983882007-05-01T01:19:00.000+05:302007-05-01T01:19:00.000+05:30Dr. Baral,I am not sure that JEE still asks questi...Dr. Baral,<BR/><BR/>I am not sure that JEE still asks questions that can only be answered by < 10% of target students, that used to be the case in my times more than 10 years ago. AFAIK, The pattern of JEE has been changed to an all objective question paper. <BR/><BR/>SudeepAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-38230467969657291702007-05-01T00:33:00.000+05:302007-05-01T00:33:00.000+05:30Abi:You said: I just mean what SAT or GRE does. It...Abi:<BR/><BR/>You said: I just mean what SAT or GRE does. It 'knows', beforehand, the difficulty level of every question it poses to a student. I don't know the policy of SAT or GRE, but I wouldn't include any question that cannot be answered by at least 25 percent of target students. Currently, JEE seems to thrive on questions that can be answered by less than 10 percent.<BR/><BR/>==<BR/><BR/>I have similar worries as the previous poster: What if after the first 50 or so ranks there are 10,000 people in the 51st rank<BR/>and there are 5000 seats.<BR/><BR/>Chittachittahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06399786901342253324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-87227689482779355112007-05-01T00:25:00.000+05:302007-05-01T00:25:00.000+05:30You keep ranting about the average performance of ...You keep ranting about the average performance of girls in X / XII and compare it with their relatively less successful numbers in JEE, when what should be compared it their performance in NTSC exams, that have more of a problem solving nature than the different board examinations, that emphasize rote learning and regurgitation.<BR/><BR/>How many girls prepare for the NTSC exams ?<BR/><BR/>How many girls clear these exams ?<BR/><BR/>Some here claim that JEE only tests how motivated you are to clear a test, not sustained motivation. Yet, if one needs 3 years of hard work to get through JEE, what more evidence of sustained motivation does one need ?<BR/><BR/>Others claim that a standardized test will solve all problems, but <B>what happens if 20,000 people have scored 100% in the standardized test and you have only 6000 seats to offer ?</B><BR/><BR/>Others claim that AIR bears no correlation to GPA, which is simply not TRUE !! In the first year of studies, when all subjects are common to all students, <B>the GPA of students correlates extremely well to their AIRs !</B> While people in CS and elec (relatively higher AIRs) breeze through, people in say, MSc chem find the first sem tough. so much so, that at the end of the first year, MSc walas breathe a sigh of relief, and CS wallas breathe a sigh of easy pickings gone. Once the students are segregated into individual branches though, performance does not correlate to AIR so well. But thats understandable, because most students are clustered very close together in their performance to have gotten into the same department.<BR/><BR/>>> schools themselves can train students for tackling both board exam and the new JEE; teachers can offer extra classes for motivated students.<BR/><BR/>Oh abi, I can almost see the ivory tower you are perched in. :-) Not all schools have a teaching staff that can cope for a differentiated level of teaching, i.e. teach students of different capabilities the same subject at a level thats equal to their capabilities. Thus, you have removed the alleged bias provided by coaching centers to affluent schools that can afford extra teaching staff and offer extra hours to their students.<BR/><BR/>But hang on, isnt this what coaching centers do in the first place ? They test students to pick those with better scholastic abilities, and then administer extra/individualized classes to students at different motivation/scholastic levels, although they do charge fees. Is that what your objection is ? The Capitalistic exchange of money for services rendered ? This kind of explains a lot.. :-)<BR/><BR/>SudeepAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-55959922382594607092007-04-30T23:02:00.000+05:302007-04-30T23:02:00.000+05:30Abhijit said:4) ISM Dhanabad has no intake of wome...Abhijit said:<BR/><I>4) ISM Dhanabad has no intake of women as a policy.</I><BR/><BR/>As a graduate from the Indian School of Mines, I can vouch for the fact that ISM has had women undergraduate students since 1985. However, the number has traditionally been small.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-30033968537368766812007-04-30T22:40:00.000+05:302007-04-30T22:40:00.000+05:30Rahul: Yes, I too would be quite happy if a bright...Rahul: Yes, I too would be quite happy if a bright student can get through without any coaching. I'm also with you on the need for JEE to be problem-oriented.<BR/><BR/>Vivek: Whatever I have said is based on info available until last year. And the changes in JEE that you noted were implemented last year itself! But you are right: may be they are moving in the right direction, so I'm willing to suspend my judgement until this year's results are out. Let's hope for some good news.<BR/><BR/>The BITS-Pilani thing is something that has been bothering me. I will tell you about something else: in my 'bleg' post, take a look at the data from the NITs. Women seem badly outnumbered in these places, even in computer engineering. Thus, there is something strange about entrance exams per se, that put women at a disadvantage. This is worth exploring.<BR/><BR/>Wanderer: The problem is not that JEE is tough. The problem is that it has questions at such high levels that they can be answered only with the help of coaching. A student's school education alone will not do.<BR/><BR/>Vishnu: I don't know the details of the IIT-study, but I presume it includes the first year, when everyone goes through the same curriculum.<BR/><BR/>Gaurav: Your suggestion that the JEE score can (somehow) incorporate the students' performance in high school exams is a very good one. The rationale is excellent.<BR/><BR/>Sorry, I have linked to the <B>only</B> study that I know of. I agree that there should be lots of serious studies done on entrance exams's efficacy in identifying people who will do well.<BR/><BR/>Pratik: Your point about the generality of the lack of correlation between the rank and CGPA is interesting. Your other point about the 'noise' in the JEE results is very valid.<BR/><BR/>Here's my (personal) answer to youre question: Solving tough problems is not necessary, but ability to apply one's knowledge to new but simple situations is essential. This is the kind of skill that a bright student should be able to pick up quite easily. Coaching may only help this student with some minor additional skills (exam taking strategy, time management, etc), but this advantage cannot be huge, if the problems that are in the entrance exams are relatively simple.<BR/><BR/>Chitta: I just mean what SAT or GRE does. It 'knows', beforehand, the difficulty level of every question it poses to a student. I don't know the policy of SAT or GRE, but I wouldn't include <B>any</B> question that cannot be answered by at least 25 percent of target students. Currently, JEE seems to thrive on questions that can be answered by less than 10 percent.<BR/><BR/>TR: Let me confess: it's <B>extremely difficult</B> to convince you! I throw up. You win!<BR/><BR/>Phani: Do you really mean that there is nothing wrong with JEE? Gosh, I have wasted the whole of last week to come to this?<BR/><BR/>RC: Thanks for the link to your insightful post. I agree with you about coaching centres being private gates to public resources. Though I have been talking about the bias against women, I have alluded to (in several places) my concern that JEE -- through the coaching centre mechanism -- discriminates against poor students and those from rural areas.<BR/><BR/>Tipsy Toes: Thanks for that link. I will get back to you in a while.<BR/><BR/>Anon (Abhijit): All the data about successful candidates in this post is about JEE rankholders. It's not about those who actually joined IITs and other institutions.<BR/><BR/>Anoop: Thanks for that info about the Chinese version of JEE! Several Asian countries seem to believe in brutalizing their young: Japan, Taiwan, etc. In the West, I know of France which has a pretty tough exam to select students for their Grandes Ecoles.<BR/><BR/>Chitta (again!): Wow! That is a pretty explosive development. I really liked the name of the person who filed the complaint: Eklavya!Abihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06790560045313883673noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-83523633949021145252007-04-30T21:31:00.000+05:302007-04-30T21:31:00.000+05:30An interesting article somewhat related to the top...An interesting article somewhat related to the topic under discussion:<BR/><BR/>http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/CIC_asks_IIT_to_disclose_cut-off/articleshow/1981857.cmschittahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06399786901342253324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-22628094228193353432007-04-30T15:19:00.000+05:302007-04-30T15:19:00.000+05:30Interesting thoughts Abi. I need to go through the...Interesting thoughts Abi. I need to go through the other posts on this topic.<BR/><BR/>Personally, I don't believe that the ability to crack near-unsolvable problems in limited time is an appropriate measure of intelligence. But the professors might know better than me.<BR/><BR/>The mushrooming of coaching classes is a recent phenomenon. The percentage of women in IIT was not great even in 70s or 80s. I don't think the proportion went down in last 15 years or so. At worst, there has been no improvement. It is however important to disincentivise the role of coaching classes, because of their unfair distribution and monetary gateway. <BR/><BR/>By the way on the topic of tough exams, the chinese National college entrance exam is one of the toughest at its level. And there too they make similar criticisms. Although, Iam not aware of proportional number of women engineers in China.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-39094705035550762732007-04-30T11:39:00.000+05:302007-04-30T11:39:00.000+05:30Some questions regarding your analysis :1) When yo...Some questions regarding your analysis :<BR/><BR/>1) When you mention successful candidates, do you mean candidates who managed to get into IIT only or those candidates who managed to get through JEE and ended up in IT BHU or ISM Dhanabad ?<BR/><BR/>2) Again, wrt women candidates did you mean the percentage of women getting into IITs or those clearing JEE ?<BR/><BR/>3) An article in wikipedia mentions the total intake through JEE in 2005 and 2006 as 4935 and 5444 respectively. These numbers are inconsistent with your figures. It is, of course, possible that the figures in wikipedia are erronous. <BR/>In that case where can one find the exact figures ??<BR/>The article is here:<BR/>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IIT-JEE#Seats<BR/><BR/>4) ISM Dhanabad has no intake of women as a policy. As mentioned in the above article, intake was 402 and 658 students in 2005 and 2006 respectively, roughly about 10% of the seats. That leaves women eligible for only 4533 and 4786 respectively, at least according to the numbers in the wikipedia article. <BR/><BR/>Did you take this factor into account while calculating the percentage of successful women candidates ?<BR/><BR/>-AbhijitAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-71908831287573122282007-04-30T11:35:00.000+05:302007-04-30T11:35:00.000+05:30I can't figure out how to trackback, but here's my...I can't figure out how to trackback, but here's my take:<BR/><BR/>http://thetomatoes.wordpress.com/2007/04/30/coming-late-to-controversy/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-21206494099781257022007-04-30T10:04:00.000+05:302007-04-30T10:04:00.000+05:30>> Aside: Some -- notably, RC -- have argued that ...>> Aside: Some -- notably, RC -- have argued that since JEE is a 'selection machine' that has no prior conception of differences among candidates, it's not biased. This is a pretty lax yardstick with which to judge the fairness of a selection machine; by this yardstick, even a lottery is a fair machine! >><BR/><BR/>Abi,<BR/><BR/>Ironically, a lottery is considered the world over as the ultimate benchmark for fairness. <BR/><BR/>In my view, there are only two completely fair systems in the world:<BR/><BR/>- a lottery (for selecting multiple winners)<BR/><BR/>- and a toss (for selecting a single winner)<BR/><BR/>Any contest (such as exams) are the worst examples of fairness, because they are designed to be in favour of those who prepare for it. <BR/><BR/><BR/>Can we use a lottery then for as a "selection machine" for IITs ? I see nothing wrong with that proposal, provided the intention is to select lucky students from a given population.<BR/><BR/>While the essence of your post, that women are not in IITs makes for good debate. Your attempts to investigate bias in the JEE selection machine are not along the correct lines. The JEE selection machine cannot distinguish between girls and boys, so the machine itself is clean and squeaky. Maybe what you want is to replace this clean and squeaky machine with another clean and squeaky machine that will make it more favorable to women. Fine, that is a reasonable argument. <BR/><BR/>This may seem to be trivial semantics, but it is important to be clear that you are suggesting an alternative selection machine. That is quite different from proving bias in the current machine.<BR/><BR/>To illustrate the selection machine point further, if you had accused the IIM selection machine as biased in some way against women or rural students - that needs further investigation. This is because of the fact that the GD and Interview rounds can quite clearly distinguish.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Your point about the JEE acting as a normalizer is well taken. Before we get there, a lot needs to be done to align various state board syllabi.<BR/><BR/>The biggest problem I see with the coaching centres is the cost and accessibility. <A HREF="http://realitycheck.wordpress.com/2007/03/19/the-iit-coaching-centre-riddle/" REL="nofollow">I see them as private gates controlling access to a public resource.</A> <BR/><BR/>This is why I like ideas that promote a cat-and-mouse game between the JEE and the coaching centres. Today, the two are lined up evenly as if in secret collaboration. That is dangerous.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-70733347785163884362007-04-30T09:37:00.000+05:302007-04-30T09:37:00.000+05:30Abi,I hope you've considered the fact that many st...Abi,<BR/>I hope you've considered the fact that many states have a women's quota for Engg. And that contributes a lot to the 20-25%.Arunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08928334389251764916noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-82131043370221965732007-04-30T08:25:00.000+05:302007-04-30T08:25:00.000+05:30This is becoming a forest of words that we are get...This is becoming a forest of words that we are getting lost in. Guys, the problem is not JEE - its a wonderful exam to identify sharp guys. The problem is not coaching - some kind of training is always there for every performance linked event in life. The problem is the huge demand versus abysmally small supply. We need to increase the number of IITs. Once we that, you will see most of the problems will get solved automatically!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14375088770211511174noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-47714754768094760432007-04-30T06:03:00.000+05:302007-04-30T06:03:00.000+05:30Consider this: schools themselves can train studen...<I>Consider this: schools themselves can train students for tackling both board exam and the new JEE; teachers can offer extra classes for motivated students.</I><BR/><BR/>Come on Abi, how many people sit for the board exams on the strength of classes taken in school alone? Everyone who can afford it gets tuitions -- some people have tuitions right from junior school onwards. Even at the "excellent" Delhi high school I attended, I'd probably have trusted only one and *maybe* two teachers to coach me outside class. <BR/><BR/>Let's reform the school system first.Tabula Rasahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16358094860426062297noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-71213723241252150032007-04-30T05:58:00.000+05:302007-04-30T05:58:00.000+05:30Abhi:In your point 3 you said"Thus, I believe JEE ...Abhi:<BR/><BR/>In your point 3 you said<BR/><BR/>"Thus, I believe JEE should be replaced with an exam that has as its primary purpose the simple job of normalizing the scores across exam boards. Yes, this does imply that the questions must be standardized (pre-tested on a sample of students, with more difficult questions carrying a greater weight)."<BR/><BR/>===<BR/><BR/>I wonder what you mean by "more difficult questions". Could you please elaborate on that how those "more difficult questions" would be different from questions in current JEE exams and yet would be able to select 5K students out of several hundreds of thousands that sit for JEE.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Thanks<BR/>Chittachittahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06399786901342253324noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-45629436025473501852007-04-30T04:54:00.000+05:302007-04-30T04:54:00.000+05:30regarding correlation between JEE and BTech GPA:Co...regarding correlation between JEE and BTech GPA:<BR/><BR/>Consider:<BR/><BR/>1. The sort of preparation required for board exams and entrance exams differ drastically.<BR/><BR/>2. The ranks are rather "clustered" within a given discipline. The difference between the student with the best JEE rank and the worst JEE rank within a branch, I guess would be at most 5 marks or so out of 300. Clearly, with such a slim margin, on another day the ranks could so easily have been reversed.<BR/><BR/>4. That some of the students "sacrifice" their board exams for JEE (while obviously quite a few dont) <BR/><BR/>Now, it is fairly easy to see that one cant hope for a good correlation between JEE and BTech GPA. When a student preparing well for both the exams, and one preparing for just the JEE get the almost the same rank (or even if the fellow preparing for both gets a slightly lower rank) they cant really be considered at par.<BR/><BR/>---------------------------<BR/><BR/>By the way, it isnt such that IIT JEE is the only such entrance exam where this lack of correlation with JEE rank exists. Such a lack of correlation exists in state entrance exams too (its just that most people dont bother to look at these less glamorous exams). <BR/><BR/>Just an example, once again from my BTech batch in NIT-R. The topper in BTech had the second last rank in the state entrance exam amongst all the gen category students in the dept. The 2nd topper had the 3rd last rank. The total class strength was 42. Both of them, by the way, scored around 75-77% in the board exams and the topper also happened to be a Math Olympian.<BR/><BR/>I admit a couple of cases dont prove anything, but in my observation, such lack of correlations between state entrance exam ranks and BTech ranks are the norm as well. Therefore, its not the IIT JEE which is just at fault. Even the "easier" exams show the same trend. So an easier IIT JEE wont necessarily lead to better correlations as long as the format isnt the same as board exams. As an aside, do note, that most of the BTech semester exams are similar to board exams in nature,i.e. the emphasis is on having a decent idea of the subject rather than pose challenging problems.<BR/><BR/>This lack of correlation will keep springing up as long as you have one set of students preparing only for an entrance exam, and another set preparing for both entrance and board exams. The way out would be if you could have just a single set of exams. However, one just needs to look at the current state of board exams to understand that they dont really test the fundamentals. They are too many "State the Newton's laws" type of questions instead of application oriented questions.<BR/><BR/>Let me ask another question. What really constitutes a good/deserving student? Is he the one who can solve tough problems using known and standard (thanks to coaching centers) techniques (IITians!) or is he the one who can "describe" and "memorize" stuff the best (board exam toppers) or the one who has a bit of knack for both the above mentioned qualities (though not necessarily in equal measure as IITians or board exam toppers), but has the ability to think out of the box? Note: I dont deny that many of the IITians (though not all) and many of the board exam toppers (though not all) would fall in this third category.<BR/><BR/>If the purpose of entrance exam / normalization is to find out the really "good/deserving" students, this is a question we need to answer unequivocally at first.Pratik Rayhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12991612512085384857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-9563879274505812007-04-30T04:17:00.000+05:302007-04-30T04:17:00.000+05:30A few years back the CAT was readministered due to...A few years back the CAT was readministered due to leaks. A few years prior to that, the same thing happened for JEE. Do you know if any reliability analysis was performed on that data? If it wasn't, then it should be.<BR/><BR/>GRE and GMAT have a <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cronbach%27s_alpha" REL="nofollow">Cronbach's Alpha</A> that is pretty high. At least for those two years, we will see reliability measure of the ranking, if not selection itself.Gauravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09184877197493389897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-72646122636442185302007-04-30T04:07:00.000+05:302007-04-30T04:07:00.000+05:30A slightly different point. Schools in the US use ...A slightly different point. Schools in the US use CGPA as well as standardized tests, among several other criterion. A research design expert at my univertsity told me this is because standardized tests measure mental ability, but not long term motivation. School grades also measure long term motivation. <BR/><BR/>Maybe instead of just setting school grades as a lower cut-off, IITs and even IIMs could factor them in a composite measure.Gauravhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09184877197493389897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9818962.post-17517389884967081562007-04-30T02:15:00.000+05:302007-04-30T02:15:00.000+05:30So, would you support BJP's proposal of 20% reserv...So, would you support BJP's proposal of 20% reservation for women?barbarindianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14335786532366741947noreply@blogger.com